Ah, it’s the holiday season! Along with colder days, warmer drinks, and a festive buzz in the air, this busy time of year comes with an increased demand in deliveries. What does this mean for e-commerce brands? A focus on the parcel is the key to a successful customer experience. We sat down with Sean Kim, VP of Customer Experience & Global Parcel Strategy at Whiplash, for a look into carrier challenges, merchant do’s & don’ts, shipping strategies, and more this holiday season.
You can learn more about holiday shipping deadlines here: https://whiplash.com/blog/holiday-shipping-deadlines-2021/
Brian Weinstein: Welcome everybody to Sippin’ and Shippin’, I’m your host, Brian Weinstein. We’ll be kicking it here every other Thursday, quenching your thirst for an insider’s take to enhance your customers’ experience. Grab your drink of choice, kick back, it’s Sippin’ and Shippin’ time. All right, welcome everybody to another episode of Sippin’ and Shippin’. I’m your host, Brian Weinstein, and keeping me company keeping me real and just keeping this flowing along. This is Caitlin Postel.
Caitlin Postel: Hey Brian, how are you? Skim Shady.
Brian Weinstein: Doing well. So yes, we have our very own Whiplash, Sean Kim, AKA the real Skim Shady with us this week to talk Parcel, because it’s that time of the year, we are coming up to Cyber Week, which is the most anticipated… I guess the one that everybody is most intimidated by. We’re excited, we’re nervous, and Sean… He’s got his ear to the rail on the key component, which is, “Is the parcel going to make it?” Welcome, Sean.
Sean Kim: It’s going to get delivered. Thank you, thank you very much. I have been waiting for this invite for months now, and when I finally got the call, I was like, “Yeah, baby, it’s time.”
Caitlin Postel: What a better time, right? Cyber seven, you’re not busy at all.
Sean Kim: Absolutely, and you know what? Parcel is sexy, so…
Brian Weinstein: Exactly right. And you know what? We knew. Caitlin and I, we had a plan. It was, we are going to save the best for last, because I think this is going maybe our last episode of the year, we might do a little bit of a recap, but we knew that this coming up is going to be a critical time for… We talk about, and two, a lot of brands, a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of people that are in our space, e-commerce fulfillment out to the consumer, and this is going… They’re nervous, right? I mean, do they have a right to be?
Sean Kim: Rightfully so. I mean coming from the e-com world, so I don’t know if everybody knows, but my background, I come from the e-commerce space, not from the three field logistics space, but purely from e-com. Usually I’m in the shoes, or over at e-com companies. Cut my teeth in e-commerce with zappos.com, Amazon, a number of other subscription, and what I like to call traditional e-commerce companies, and the one thing I’ve learned in my… We’ll call it almost 20 years now, I guess… Parcel is usually not given enough love or attention. A lot of people just think about, “Okay, let’s get the package out the door.”
But when you work with Whiplash, one of the things you realize or we realize is that Parcel is connected to everything, right? Because from our experience, the pure… The brand-specific customer experience doesn’t end when we ship the package, right? It ends when the consumer gets the package in their hands, they open it up, and they’re like, “Wow, this product is awesome. This brand… I love this brand, and they got it to me super fast,” and now we’re hitting a point where really like 60% of an e-com’s business is done in these last couple months of the year, and customer acquisition costs is expensive, and you’re delivering an amazing experience, and Parcel has a big part of that. So should people be concerned? Yeah, I think people should be concerned just because of… Just the amount of volume that’s going through.
Brian Weinstein: So this time one year ago today versus this time today, when were you more concerned, last year or this year?
Sean Kim: Great question, and I think I’m going to say this year, I’m probably more concerned, but not so much because I expect things to be worse. Last year with the whole pandemic, it was really a lot of unknowns, right? We didn’t know how carriers were going to react to the pandemic, we didn’t know what people who worked for these carriers in the sortation centers and the drivers… What they were going to do, right? If there was an outbreak… COVID outbreak, what happens to a particular sortation facility? Does the whole thing just go down? And those are some of the things we did see last year, whereas this year with the vaccines out there, and people being more cautious about safety protocols, I think this year should be better.
But what I’m more concerned about this year is that all the carriers have put in significant infrastructure upgrades, they’ve invested a lot of money, and they try to get the processes down to make things better, to keep things more… Just moving packages. But some of the challenges we faced this year that are a little bit different are labor, right? We have a large number of people who don’t want to work or are not able to work, and that affects everything from sortation center, again, down to the driver who’s making the delivery.
Brian Weinstein: And I have to imagine it’s pure demand too, right? I mean the volumes… Even though the volumes were really jumped in 2020, 2021 those volumes have to be extremely high as well.
Sean Kim: Yeah. Yeah, and that’s a great segue, because the second part of my concern is that what a lot of e-com companies learned last year is that they kind of missed the boat in terms of really maximizing the peak season. And this year, especially with some of the challenges in retail and supply chain, everybody’s pushing more towards e-com.
Brian Weinstein: Right.
Sean Kim: For direct-to-consumer deliveries. And that’s just… Really all we’re seeing is increase in package volumes, which leads into challenges of network capacity for each carrier. And I don’t think that any particular carrier is going to be better off than any other carrier. I think all carriers have, again, they’ve invested a ton of money, and they put a lot of time in to try to figure out how they can make things better.
Brian Weinstein: Right, and so even though they’ve built this capacity, they still don’t have enough labor, and probably haven’t built to the extent that e-commerce has exploded.
Sean Kim: Yeah, I mean… I think the labor crunch is definitely a concern. It’s really about execution, right? So these companies have put in, again, new processes, they’ve put in some new solutions that they think is going to help with capacity issues this peak season, but the big question is, “Will it work?”
Brian Weinstein: Right.
Sean Kim: And that remains to be seen.
Brian Weinstein: Now I know you put in extensive time with the carriers in the planning process. Are companies that maybe haven’t put in that amount of time, are they going to be in trouble? If they didn’t provide those forecasts, are they going to be in trouble with the carriers?
Caitlin Postel: Yeah, and aside from forecast, what did that planning look like?
Sean Kim: The planning process was… It was a pretty extensive process. We work with each of our Whiplash customers, the e-comm companies who are doing direct-to-consumer, and really we sit down with them and kind of understand what their marketing and their acquisition plans are, what they think that they’re projecting, and we really kind of look at from low, medium, high forecasts. And then based off of what they’re forecasting, we kind of aggregate everything, you try to understand… We talk about peak cutoffs, which I’m sure we’re going to probably roll into here in a little bit, too, and really we’re working with our e-com merchants to understand what they’re expecting, what they think is going to happen, aggregate all that information to work with our carriers to figure out how many pickups… How many times a day do we need pickups of Ground, Express, Postal, all the various types of sortations there are… Trying to understand and break it down. And we work with our customers to help them understand that capacity is… There is going to be constraint.
Fortunately, we start the process as soon as we can, meaning when the carriers are ready to do it, and we hit it hard, because we want to try to get up, take up as much of that capacity as we can. The approval process is going to go… For that capacity is going to go really first come, first served, and so we try to do the best we can to reserve all that capacity and the trailers.
Brian Weinstein: So for the brands that are thinking about juggling around into the different channels… So does that present an issue? So should people be reacting and saying, “Hey, I’m hearing provider X and their Ground is not go… So let’s shift over to provider Y,” and does it make sense, or should they kind of let… Because things are going to change so quickly on a daily basis?
Sean Kim: Yeah. I think probably the advice that I give our customers the most is don’t panic, right? Just because you see some behavior right now where a delivery might be getting delayed in certain networks, don’t panic and try to change, because whoever has done peak planning with the carriers for our customers, as well as customers who aren’t Whiplash customers, or merchants who aren’t Whiplash customers, those capacities reservations are… They’re locked and loaded.
Brian Weinstein: Right.
Sean Kim: Right? So let’s say, for example, someone decides they don’t want to ship UPS, and they want to ship FedEx. That panic move could end up causing more problems, because UPS isn’t aware of those capacities, and FedEx isn’t aware of that boost in capacity. Again, I’ll just go ahead and say from a delivery side of things, FedEx and UPS are not going to be extremely different. Both are going to have challenges, they’re going to be different challenges as we go through this peak season, and yeah, I would say try to stick to your guns and have faith.
Brian Weinstein: Yep. And so in terms of the challenges, do you see the challenges being more upfront where pickups not being made daily, or is it network-related once it… But the pickups will be consistent, but it’s network… Do you see that, or is that different amongst the different carriers?
Sean Kim: Yeah, that’s a great question, and I think that’s where you start to see some variations between the various carriers, right? I won’t name the specific carriers, but certain carriers are going to have more challenges with pickups. We saw this last year, they have a schedule of pickups, if the capacity goes over, they’re not going to be able to add more trailers just to add more pickups, because everything’s already been allocated. Certain carriers are going to have… They’re going to be great at doing the pickups, but then kind of the first mile sortation is where the challenges come, right? Because now they’ve picked everything up, they’re like, “Okay, we have the packages, now we got to sort all this out.” And so you could end up seeing delays getting that first origin scan. But I feel like once you have packages inside the network, carriers will start moving the packages very efficiently. Yeah, I think it’s really the first scan, and kind of the final delivery scan. Those are the biggest challenges.
Caitlin Postel: I think that’s definitely an opportunity for merchants to just communicate with the end user, right? Because so many people, they place their order, they get the tracking number, it doesn’t show up. We’ve done our job as the warehouse, we hit our SLA, they don’t get the first scan, and now they’re getting flooded with customer service calls. “Where’s my package?” This is just the beginning, this is just the iceberg. Be easy, communicate, it’s something that we hear. It’s been a consistent theme across the episodes. I mean, what better way to plan than to let the folks know? I mean, we saw it last year, I’m sure we’re going to see it again, Sean.
Sean Kim: 100%. I mean, absolutely right. I mean, it’s one of those… I recommend, don’t panic, figure out whether you have a direct relationship with the carrier or you’re working through a third party logistics company like Whiplash. When you start to see these inquiries tick up where you’re not… Customers calling you, and I’m not seeing an origin scan, immediately reach out to your contact, right? So for Whiplash, that would be myself or someone on my team, reach out, because we have ways of trying to figure out where those packages are, right? At Whiplash, we are tracking every trailer that leaves every single one of our facilities, and we are doing our best to work with the carriers to understand… Get a status of where those trailers.
In terms of sortation, it’s the first mile, then we have the ability to get an idea, a sense of… Like last year, what we saw, we saw trailers go into one facility or one sortation facility, and then that sortation facility was just over capacity, so they moved the trailer to another facility, and you don’t see that on the scans, but we’re able to… Our e-com merchants know about that, and they could start relaying that message to consumers, their customers, and it’s not the best message in the world, but at the same time unfortunately direct-to-consumer companies have to be prepared to be able to communicate that bad news, and put the best foot forward and say, “We’re doing everything we can to try to figure out where the package is.”
Caitlin Postel: Saying something is always better than saying nothing, even if it’s not the best news, right? You have to address it.
Brian Weinstein: Yeah. I was going to say the same thing. It’s when things are invisible, and the customer doesn’t know, and they’re scratching their heads, and I’ll just relay a story without mentioning the brand. My son had bought for his girlfriend a product on Black Friday, Cyber Monday, he had no visibility, there was no communication, and this was a major, major brand, one everyone knows. Then he got a… Not even a week before Christmas, he got a message that one of the six items were shipping, and the rest of them were all not making it out. And now that wasn’t a carrier issue, by the way, that was actually a brand issue, but still, it’s the same, right?
If people are communicating with you and saying, “Hey, listen, your package has been shipped. There’s delays in the parcel carrier, but you’ll get it, and here’s the tracking number, and we expect this to… We’ll give you more updates every day, but we expect this to be delivered by the 12th of December, even though you ordered it the 1st of December,” at least they have visibility, and then they’re not panicked that they need to run to the store and go buy another gift for somebody somewhere else, because they have that. I think that’s key. Sean, how are you communicating out to the customers? Is there a constant flow of communication, is it on an ad hoc, sort of need-basis as problems arise, or is there just a full communication?
Sean Kim: We definitely try to communicate as much as possible when we start to hear about certain challenges. There’s certain things like, for example, if a truck breaks down, right? Which leads to a delay that… We don’t hear about it until days, weeks, if we even hear about it at all.
Brian Weinstein: Right.
Caitlin Postel: Sure.
Sean Kim: And so there are challenges like that, but when we hear about major issues like sortation centers going down, or sortation centers being completely over capacity, then we put our best foot forward ourselves, and we try to work with our carrier partners and try to understand like, “Okay, what can we do to help you with this situation?” They’re going to do what they can to manage the situation, but from our side of things, we’ll look at creative solutions. We’ll say like, “Should we inject into a different sortation facility?”
Brian Weinstein: Right.
Sean Kim: Should we work… Can we get that trailer moved over to a different facility, to a different sortation center? Maybe it’s in the next city over, it’s maybe a couple states over, where it might lead to a day or two extra in transit, but we know that’s going to be faster in terms of processing and for delivery. We work very close with our carrier partners to be much a part of the solution as they are, and not just trying to point the finger at them and say like, “You guys need to figure this out.”
Brian Weinstein: Yeah, I know. As an organization, we focus on this a lot. There’s no sense of finger pointing, it’s wasted energy.
Sean Kim: Right.
Brian Weinstein: Right? It’s all about coming up with the solutions collaboratively-
Sean Kim: Right.
Sean Kim: Yeah. I mean one of our core values as you guys know is empathy, right? And so empathy is not just internally, it’s not just with our prospects, our customers, it’s across the board, it’s all the partners. Everybody is part of the solution that we call customer experience, brand-specific customer experience, right? And we have to empathize with them, and we hope that through empathy, they will be transparent with us, and give us information so that we can help them with solutions, so…
Caitlin Postel: So customer experience, we talked about what the distributors, the 3PLs have done, what the carriers have done to prepare end-users. Maybe I’m throwing this question in selfishly, because I want to know if I’m ordering today, Sean, what is your recommendation? Do I spend that extra, do I bite the bullet, do I finally pay for shipping? Do I pay for the expedited shipping? Is it a waste of my $10, or should I just go ahead and do it?
Sean Kim: So if I had one piece of advice for consumers, buy early, and comfort your expectations, because I know every merchant out there… For consumers, they have to understand that these merchants don’t want to slow down, or they don’t want the experience to be negative.
Caitlin Postel: Right.
Sean Kim: They’re very mindful of it. They should be mindful of it. And when things go bad and packages get lost, or they get delayed, the merchants are very much panicking as much as… Or upset as much as the consumer is.
Caitlin Postel: We talked about customer acquisition, right? Like what better way to blow it than at the hands of the carriers?
Sean Kim: Yeah, 100%, right? And so that’s a big challenge, but I say order early, don’t wait till the last minute, and yeah, really temper those expectations.
Caitlin Postel: Temper those expectations, yep. 100%.
Sean Kim: Yeah.
Caitlin Postel: All right, so I guess I have to go home and start ordering gifts, then.
Sean Kim: Yeah.
Brian Weinstein: Exactly.
Sean Kim: And the other thing too, for consumers, as well as for the merchants is… Porch piracy this year is just… This time of year is just absolutely brutal, right? And so carriers, they have to unload these packages, they have to deliver them. Now they may not deliver the packages if they know an area and a neighborhood is known for high theft. If they’re aware of that, they’re not just going to leave the package. But if an area is traditionally, or is easily known not to have high theft, the carriers are going to do that. But some of these areas that are not known for high theft are also where some of these porch pirates this time of year really target. We had a customer who has had packages delivered to Beverly Hills. You wouldn’t think that Beverly Hills would have porch piracy problems, but they’re there.
So advice for consumers is to really monitor that tracking, get an idea of… Look for that out for delivery scan. This is what I do personally, myself, and really kind of… Everybody kind of has an idea of when they know FedEx Ground or UPS Ground is going to be… When they generally deliver, kind of the timeframe in their neighborhood, right? And be aware that if your Ground delivery is usually around 6:00 PM, be there waiting for that delivery to happen, and get that package right away.
Caitlin Postel: Yeah.
Sean Kim: It’s-
Caitlin Postel: Get your neighbors on board.
Brian Weinstein: Yeah.
Sean Kim: Get your neighbors on board. We’ve made a significant effort this year from a partnership side of things to partner with some insurance companies, parcel-levels insurance companies, to work with our customers, and give them a economical solution to offer insurance to consumers and for themselves, so when a package… It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when. When packages disappear, they’re able to cover the cost of that. Not just the parcel side of things, the shipping side of things, but also the goods, cost of goods as well. Porch piracy is on the rise, it’s going to continue to rise, and consumers can really help themselves as well as the entire process from checkout to delivery by knowing when that delivery’s coming, and being there for it.
Brian Weinstein: Exactly, exactly. And damn it, if you see something, say something.
Sean Kim: Exactly.
Brian Weinstein: So Sean, if we’re looking at cutoff times, and I guess let’s start for Ground, so what are the published cutoff… Let’s go with the big three. Let’s go FedEx, DHL, UPS. What are the three Ground cutoff times for those three?
Sean Kim: Yeah, so there’s… You can go look at each of the respective sites and they set up cutoff times based off of what their average transit times are, right? So if you look at UPS Ground and FedEx Ground, they average usually two to five days transit.
Brian Weinstein: Yep.
Sean Kim: Right? Anywhere in the US. With the COVID whole pandemic, they’ve been adding a plus one. So you’re really looking kind of like three to six days, right?
Brian Weinstein: Yep.
Sean Kim: And so carriers are going into the peak season kind of with that mindset saying, “Okay, if you’re trying to order by Christmas, you have up to six days beforehand.” Now I’ve been doing this a long time to know that’s taking a big risk.
Brian Weinstein: Okay.
Sean Kim: Right? So at Whiplash we offer much more conservative cutoff times. We’ve posted a blog post on it, and I’m sure we can get a link to that blog post shared out, but we try to pad that cutoff by a few days.
Brian Weinstein: Okay.
Sean Kim: But I tell you, for direct-to-consumer merchant, as you start moving deeper into December, I recommend transitioning more into the Air network, right? Just start shipping it. Yes, it’s going to be more expensive, you’re going to feel it a little bit, but it’s going to be… The difference between the Ground shipping and Air shipping compared to your cost of acquisition, and compared to how much support you’re going to have to deal with with packages… “Where’s my package inquiries?” And the work that you’re going to have to put into working with carriers try to track down where these packages are, it’s just so much better. It’s just going to lead to a better experience, and who knows, you’re probably going to wow your customers when they… Like, “Hey, I was expecting Ground, but you put it in the two-day network,” carriers are going to focus more on their Air networks, the Express networks, and most of the time these consumers are going to get their packages in the two days, and they’re going to say like, “Holy cow, that was awesome.”
Caitlin Postel: Yeah, pick where you’re going to pay, and lead with positive, right? Why not?
Sean Kim: Exactly.
Brian Weinstein: So along those lines, how confident are you in the Air network’s ability to handle a shift of capacity in there? Into that network?
Sean Kim: I think one thing that all merchants and consumers need to understand is carriers will prioritize Air first. They’re going to prioritize the Air network first. If you have a package that needs to go overnight, that package is most likely going to get there overnight. Same with two-day, those are going to be the highest priority. The second priority is going to be Ground, right? So if the Express network, Air network starts to hit capacity, some carriers may shift resources from Ground over to the Air network to help with deliveries, to help with sortation. It happens. And then the third… I’ll say third in kind of the pecking order is going to be the more economical services, like your SmartPosts, your SurePosts, your… Any sort of hybrid solution. It’s not the US Postal Service necessarily, it’s just the Ground networks are going to take priority over those other services.
Brian Weinstein: Right.
Sean Kim: The less expensive it is, the slower it’s going to be.
Brian Weinstein: Yep. Good, fast, cheap. Pick two.
Sean Kim: Exactly.
Caitlin Postel: Okay. So we have to pay for shipping, folks. Pay for the shipping, upgrade your shipping, order now, or we don’t want to hear the complaints on the back end.
Brian Weinstein: Order early.
Caitlin Postel: Order. Early.
Sean Kim: Yeah, and merchants, I know it’s painful. I know it’s painful to hear, believe me, I’ve been there, I know. But this is a time of year where you want to really make an impression, and a positive impression. And the last thing you want to hear is, “You ruined my Christmas,” so-
Caitlin Postel: Oh, you just said it. And I like, “Oh…” I feel like… I felt it.
Brian Weinstein: Kind of hurt.
Caitlin Postel: It did, it did.
Brian Weinstein: Right to the bone.
Sean Kim: Yeah, and believe me you’re going to… You don’t want to… And you don’t want to say in hindsight, “We probably should have just paid the extra $5 to ship that Air.”
Brian Weinstein: Yep. And Sean, do you have a little bit more confidence in the carrier’s Air cutoff dates, or do you think you should kind of peel those back a day or two as well?
Sean Kim: I do. With the Air… I think we’ve really only patted it by a day or two. I have to look again. I think if it falls over on a weekend, like let’s say you order by Friday or you order on Friday, nobody should expect that package to be out the door by Friday afternoon, right? Air cutoffs are generally a lot shorter because those packages need to hit the various sortation facilities, need to be put onto trucks, and then taken straight to the airport, right? To be put on commercial airlines, off to its destination. So cutoffs are much earlier. I would say… I think we’ve patted maybe one or two days for Air, whereas Ground, I think we put in about four.
Brian Weinstein: Amazing. There’s no more time to think, time to read and react as they say.
Sean Kim: Yes. And I can’t emphasize this enough, don’t panic. Don’t start shifting things around between different carriers, because, again, all it’s going to do is going to lead to capacity issues. If UPS isn’t aware that you shipped some FedEx volume to them, they can’t react, and vice versa. It’s just stick to your guns, and make the best of it.
Brian Weinstein: Yeah. I feel like it’s when a directions app starts routing you around something, and they start routing all these people around, then you have another traffic jam off the path.
Sean Kim: Yeah.
Brian Weinstein: So the way too early to predict prediction, are we having the same conversation in 2022? Assuming that the volumes in e-com continue to increase as they have been, do we still have the same problem, or are the providers straightening out their networks, or are there newer players entering the field that helped to spread that capacity around?
Caitlin Postel: Oh, I wasn’t expecting that. Same conversation, different factors.
Sean Kim: Yeah. I think in 2022, all the challenges with the supply chain are going to become much bigger issues. We have supply chain issues right now.
Brian Weinstein: Yep.
Sean Kim: I know a lot of merchants who are expecting a huge peak season, their inventory is still sitting in a container off the shore, trying to get it to the port. I think we’re going to see more of that in 2022, so I think that’s going to really temper the volume and capacities, and I think carries are going to continue to invest, and we have a few things up our sleeves, which… Not going to disclose just yet, but we have a few little things up our sleeves. We’re already preparing for 2022 peak.
Caitlin Postel: Nice.
Sean Kim: I’ll just go ahead and say that. We’re already preparing 2022 peak.
Brian Weinstein: Skim Shady throws out a teaser, look at that.
Caitlin Postel: He just wants another invite back on.
Brian Weinstein: He’s already booked for this time next year.
Sean Kim: Yeah, exactly.
Brian Weinstein: That’s amazing.
Sean Kim: This whole thing… It’s a collaborative effort, right? I mean, it’s working with our business development team, working with our operations team, our support team, and trying to understand… What are the problems that we faced so far this year, what problems do we think we’re going to face in the peak season, and what can we do to prevent or avoid these situations, or at least have some redundancy, right? And so we’re going to have some new stuff next year.
Brian Weinstein: Amazing. He’s going to let that hang out. That’s just hanging in the air now. Sean, listen man, you know I love you. We get to… Unfortunately we didn’t get to see each other for a while, and now we’re back to being able to connect in-person. Looking forward to next month, I think we’re going to see each other next month. Really appreciate you coming on and imparting your wisdom and knowledge to our audience, and thanks, and we’ll have a drink over this in a few weeks.
Sean Kim: Did you know-
Brian Weinstein: All right Caitlin-
Caitlin Postel: What was that?
Sean Kim: I’m three months sober now.
Brian Weinstein: Nice.
Sean Kim: But I may break that just for you.
Brian Weinstein: Oh, thank you.
Caitlin Postel: Don’t make promises.
Brian Weinstein: Thank you. Don’t make promises.
Sean Kim: It’s Sippin’ and Shippin’, right? So…
Brian Weinstein: Exactly right.
Sean Kim: Yeah. Hey, thank you guys very much. I really love this podcast, and super excited to be a part of it, so thank you.
Brian Weinstein: Awesome. All right, Caitlin. You want to take us out?
Caitlin Postel: Sure. Thank you Skim Shady, always a pleasure. Thank you guys, everyone for tuning in, check us out every other Thursday, at sippinandshippin.com or on your favorite podcast platform. We’ll be back not next Thursday, but the following Thursday with our end of year recap episode. Thanks everybody.
Brian Weinstein: All right, take care. Thank you.
Sean Kim: Thanks guys.
Brian Weinstein: Take care.