Congested terminals, vessels accumulating in ports, warehouses packed beyond capacity … supply chain deficiencies have always been present during peak season. But over the past few months, we’ve been exposed to more and more difficulties on the import side of the fulfillment process. This week we sat down with Bill Mongelluzzo, Senior Editor at the West Coast Journal of Commerce, for a deep dive into what’s happening, why it’s happening, and what to expect for the future.
- JOC – Journalism of Commerce
- TEU – Twenty-foot equivalent unit
- ILWU – International Longshore and Warehouse Union
- CDL – Commercial driver’s license
- NGOs – Non-governmental organization
Brian Weinstein: Welcome everybody to Sippin’ and Shippin’. I’m your host, Brian Weinstein. We’ll be kicking it here every other Thursday, quench in your thirst for an insider’s take to enhance your customer’s experience. Grab your drink of choice, kick back, it’s sipping and shipping time. All right, welcome everybody to another episode of Sippin’ and Shippin’. I am your host, Brian Weinstein. And keeping me company and keeping me real, my co-host Caitlin Postel.
Caitlin Postel: Hey Brian, what’s going on? How are you today?
Brian Weinstein: I’m doing well. I am doing well. We are gearing up for a holiday season. There’s a lot going on. And Caitlin, I don’t know if you’ve heard, but the supply chain is broken.
Caitlin Postel: No. Impossible. Whatever do you mean?
Brian Weinstein: Impossible, they say, but yet here we are. And it’s interesting because it is now saturating mainstream media, which is why we thought it was important to make sure that our audience is hearing it from the best of the best. And so today as our special guest, we have Bill Mongelluzzo, the Senior West Coast Editor of the JOC. Welcome, Bill.
Bill Mongelluzzo: Thanks, Brian. And thanks, Caitlin.
Brian Weisntein: So I have to tell you, we’ve gotten to a point. Are we beyond just blaming this on COVID? I understand there was in March 2020 and things came to a screeching halt and then the wheels started to turn again. But it can’t be 16 months of playing catch up, can it?
Bill Mongelluzzo: Well Brian, COVID did not cause the supply chain problems that we have been experiencing for more than one year now, COVID exposed the deficiencies that were always there. It’s just that we never really realized the deficiencies in the port related supply chain, except during peak season. Peak season is generally considered August through October in the trans Pacific because we get, as a country, most of our imports from Asia. You have congested terminals, you have vessels accumulating at ports, you have inter modal rail overwhelmed, you have warehouses packed beyond their capacity every peak season. After the holiday merchandise has entered the country and has passed through the warehouses to the stores, you then have about two months, November, December, of time to catch up. They free up their assets, their chassis, et cetera. And by January, things are back to normal.
Brian Weinstein: Yeah. And it’s funny because right now, this is not just happening in LA Long Beach, right? It’s happening throughout the country. However, a big portion of this has to rest on the LA Long Beach ports because their biggest port in the country. So it’s fair for them to take a big heap of the crap that’s being dissed towards the ports in the supply chain problem. Is that fair?
Bill Mongelluzzo: Yes. To put it in perspective, the port complex Los Angeles Long Beach handles 50%, half of all US imports from Asia. And so the second biggest port complex is New York, New Jersey. They handle about half of what LA Long Beach does. And then you go down the list, relatively small amounts of cargo compared to LA Long Beach. So yes, the leading problems are going to surface first in LA Long Beach, they’re going to be more intense, and they’re going to last longer in Southern California.
Brian Weinstein: And so you mentioned it’s exposed the problem and I’ll go right to the heart of the matter, and I guess ask the difficult question. We’re coming up on a contract year for the union. Is that correct?
Bill Mongelluzzo: That is correct. 2022.
Brian Weinstein: Yep. And so there’s been a long history of every time it’s a contract year, there are seemingly these issues arise, slow downs, whatever. Is that a contributing factor to this now?
Bill Mongelluzzo: No, absolutely not. It’s certainly on the minds of every importer, every major retailer, but the current contract will expire on July 1st, 2022. The deviations for that contract between the ILW and the employers represented by the Pacific Maritime Association probably will not even kick in until May. That’s the way it’s been in every contract year since I’ve been covering the industry. But as far as actually having any direct or even indirect impact on what is happening, no. Absolutely not.
Brian Weinstein: So is this because of consumer demand? Is there that much more demand for product now than there’s ever been that’s put us in this position?
Bill Mongelluzzo: Yes, and let me answer that at two levels. One, just at the macro number level, the general Congress, my colleagues, have analyzed our peers’ numbers going back five years. And the monthly volume of imports is now 20% higher than the similar months to 19 and earlier than that. 2020 was just a weird year. So if you compare August of this year with August of 2019, it was about 20% higher, you can do that with every month this year. So what that means is the base of volume that we are importing as a nation now is about 20% higher than it was pre COVID. But I’ll put a second explanation on that. Why is that? It is because of e-commerce, online shopping. And the logistics involved in e-commerce, as you well know, is based on constant replenishment.
So when consumers go to the store, whatever, their local Target, and they look for whatever they need for their daily lives and there is a huge gap in the shelf, they don’t like that. Retailers know that. So they are constantly ordering replenishment of their basic consumer goods and it’s coming in much more rapidly, much more consistently and in smaller volumes, but spread out over the entire year as opposed to the traditional peaks and valleys of the brick and mortar based economy that we’ve been used to.
Brian Weinstein: Yeah. You said something to me in a call that we had earlier in the week that was a little bit alarming. So I actually had a different perspective and was thinking through differently, and that was about inventory. And I’ve been involved in economies where we were over inventoried and we had more inventory on hand than we needed. The economy slowed down and then a lot of our customers were stuck with inventory and they were trying to dump it and it was just a bad, bad convergence of situations. When I mentioned that to you the other day, are we sitting in a position right now because warehouse spaces is very difficult to come by, everybody’s warehouses are full, you can’t find more capacity around, it would scream to me that we have more inventory on hand that we know what to do with, but yet you had mentioned something about inventory of sales ratios?
Bill Mongelluzzo: Correct. Yes. Okay, what is happening is that normally, I’m just focusing on the retail, is normally about 1.4 or 1.5 to one the inventory versus the sales. It got earlier this year as low as 1.08. Now it’s up over 1.11, but that’s still much lower than the 1.4, 1.5 that it should be. And the reason for that is, one, the increased purchases by the consumers, but the retailers have been shipping their holiday merchandise much earlier than they used to. It started coming in the summer. So the Christmas merchandise came in, went right to the warehouses and houses in June, July, August, because the retailers knew that the supply chain was very tight and they had to ship early if they wanted their products to be sold on Black Friday and not on Valentine’s Day next year.
So you had early shipping, fast forwarding of holiday merchandise mixed in with the Halloween stuff and back to school and all of that. And then what happened is by about, I would say August, September, the retailers had to put almost a hard stop on their replenishment of normal merchandise in order to handle the continued flow of the holiday merchandise which is now being supplemented by spring merchandise because the home improvement stores, the Lowe’s, Home Depots, whatever, their peak season is in the spring. So they have to have on their store shelves their spring merchandise by whatever, by end of February, March. But they also are concerned that they’re going to be hit by an early Chinese New Year this coming year, February 1st, which is two to three weeks earlier than usual when factories shut down in China and other places in Asia. So you have fast forward into the spring merchandise now that’s contributing to the congested warehouses. So it’s just a continuous flood of merchandise.
Brian Weinstein: So you have right now how many vessels are sitting outside of the ports?
Bill Mongelluzzo: Yesterday, the Marine Exchange of Southern California, they come out every day with their Anchorage report. It’s back up to seven. There were 70 vessels that were there. I think it was 26 to 28 on top of that. So you have close to 100 vessels, just container ships, in port right now in LA Long Beach. Like I say, 70 of those were stuck at anchor. It’s getting near the peak. The peak was in mid-September at 73. So it’s edging. Well, it’s going very rapidly back up. And just to put this in constant, pre COVID, vessels did not go to anchor. It was maybe overnight waiting for a birth to open the next morning, but the vast majority of vessels, they would arrive on time. They would go directly to birth. So when you have 70 at anchor, that tells you the magnitude of the congestion that our ports face.
Caitlin Postel: Yeah. Now Bill, I know there was mention last week of moving the port of LA to a 24/7 operation. What are your thoughts on that? Is that what it’s going to take to clear this up? Has it ever been done before? Is it feasible?
Bill Mongelluzzo: Yeah, no. To answer all your-
Caitlin Postel: Bam, bam, bam.
Bill Mongelluzzo: Yes. Yeah, very good. No, those questions are spot on. I just did a story on that, which appeared yesterday. You have this discussion going on at two levels. The Biden administration knows that we have a severe supply chain problem, especially in LA Long Beach. So he went right to the belly of the beast and they publicly bought in to the 24/7 concept. And they were very careful in their wording, but the bottom line is this is aspirational. I followed up Monday with interviews with the actual terminal operators. There are 12 terminal operators in LA Long Beach. And they, on the record, the ones I spoke to, said, “One, in order to operate 24/7, it would result in huge costs. It would quadruple the costs of the terminal operator. If Walmart wants to pay us to open up the night shift, which is 3:00 AM to 8:00 AM, and pay us to cover our additional costs, we’ll be glad to do that.”
Secondly, it’s not really necessary. I don’t know if it’ll ever be necessary to have a 24/7 operation. So without boring you, the existing work shifts at the harbor are the day shift, 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM. The night shift, and only LA long beach in the country has regular night shifts, 6:00 PM to 3:00 AM. And then they have what they call the hoot, the hoot owl shift from 3:00 AM to 8:00 AM. That’s extremely costly. It’s overtime pay per hour. It’s paying workers to work eight hours at overtime wages for five hours of work. However, there’s a built in safety mechanism.
By the contract, the terminal operators are able to flex each of their gates, the morning and the evening gate, by one hour. And the terminals have been doing this for forever in LA Long Beach. They run from 7:00 AM to 3:00 AM the next morning because in effect they run the day and night gates consecutively and they start each one early. That’s 20 hours. In reality, what has happened and then I’ll end this discussion, the truckers show up in droves from 7:00 AM to about 10:00 PM, which is the lunch break for the night shift. And then from 10:00 PM to 3:00 AM, you may have a dozen trucks calling at that time. So do you see what I’m saying? So these retailers and truckers are not making use of the hours that are already there.
Caitlin Postel: Got it, yeah. And then I guess it’s not just costly on the longshoreman side, but then of course there’s truckers and then warehousing, right? Who’s receiving product at a warehouse at 3:00 AM?
Bill Mongelluzzo: Very few, very few, very few warehouses. Secondly, the drivers are limited by hours of service limitations.
Caitlin Postel: Right, good point.
Bill Mongelluzzo: So a driver cannot drive from 7:00 AM to 3:00 AM the next morning. Secondly, they’ll receive a big fine. And the X number of drivers in the harbor and that’s it. You can’t create more truck drivers and trucks.
Brian Weinstein: Yeah, and that’s been something that’s been going downhill for years. They have not been replenishing the trucking industry with drivers at a rapid enough pace for a long time. It’s interesting, you can’t get your CDL in the US until I think you’re 21 or 22.
Bill Mongelluzzo: Yeah, it may be even a little… But you’re right. You can’t get it at 18.
Brian Weinstein: Right. So now you have someone who graduates high school, wants to go into a trade. Are they going to wait around until they’re eligible to get their CDL? Or at some point, are they going to move on and go find another trade that they can go into immediately out of high school? So now you’ve got a whole block of people who could be the training ground for the drivers and we don’t use it.
Bill MOngelluzzo: Right. You’re absolutely right. The way it works, I think, is these drivers, young kids they’ll work in the warehouse at 18 or upon high school graduation until they can get their CDL. But they probably allow them drop out of that too.
Brian Weinstein: Right, and find something else that they can get into.
Bill Mongelluzzo: Exactly, so you’re right. And the existing drivers are getting older, a lot of them are doing rather well, they’re not going to work 12 hours a day, they don’t need to. So yeah, you have a truck driver shortage problem, both in the driving sector and in the over the road sector. I haven’t seen the latest numbers from the American Trucking Association, but the deficit is tens of thousands countrywide.
Brian Weinstein: Right, right. So, so let’s go back to the vessels for a second. Do you know approximately, you said there’s 28 in birth, there’s about 70 anchored. Do you know what that represents in, I’ll say, TEUs. But for those of you listening that don’t know what a TEU is, it’s a container, it’s a 20 foot equivalent. Do you know what that represents in terms of TEUs?
Bill Mongelluzzo: It’s hundreds of thousands of TEUs. So the port complex of LA Long Beach has been handling close to 800,000 TEUs of imports each month now.
Brian Weinstein: Each month, okay.
Bill Mongelluzzo: It’s probably been at least 100,000 TEUs sitting on vessels in the harbor month after month. So what was supposed to come in and be processed at the docks in August maybe didn’t come in until late September. So do you see what I’m saying? So yeah, so the numbers, although they sound and they are huge, they don’t tell you the full story of how much cargo is coming in and will continue to come in.
Brian Weinstein: Yeah. Just to give a little perspective, Bill, and I know this is probably just an estimate on your part, but if not a single other vessel made its way over to LA Long Beach, how long would it take them to get caught up with what they currently have in birth and at anchor?
Bill Mongelluzzo: Okay, well I’ll focus on LA Long Beach because it is unique. In what they call the Pacific Southwest Service, they leave the last Asia port call, they come into LA Long Beach. They discharge and reload at least 80% of the content. Some vessels come into 100% discharge and reload. And then the ones that are doing 80% move up to Oakland, they finish with the work there, they head back to Asia. So given those volumes, it takes your average vessel, when conditions are right, when the terminals are fluid, it takes your average vessel three to four days to be worked, these large vessels.
So that gives you what it should be. But now in the current environment, that same vessel that would be cleared, completely worked in three or four days could be there easily seven days because the terminals are so full that if the terminal operator put a full compliment of longshore gains against the… And don’t forget, here, you could run 5, 6, 7 cranes or more per vessel if the terminal’s fluid. But if you discharge that many inbound containers from the vessel, there would be zero space to put them because the terminals here are operating as close to 100% capacity as you can get.
Brian Weinstein: Yes, incredible. And I know that our transportation group is saying that they can’t go in to pick up a container without a chassis.
Bill Mongelluzzo: Correct.
Brian Weinstein: We have our own chassis, but we can’t go in with empties because they have no room for the empties. So therefore, it’s so bottle necked. We have the chassis, but we have an empty container that the port can’t take. So it’s this complete bottleneck that we can’t seem to get away from. And so what fixes this? If this demand continues to stay the way it is, and look, we have customers, Bill, that they were LA Long Beach, but a lot of them were also doing stuff into Seattle Tacoma, they’re chartering their own vessels now and going to little obscure ports just to get them offloaded and continue the product coming in, which is a great idea. Obviously you have to have deep pockets to be able to get away with it, but what’s going to get us out of this?
Bill Mongelluzzo: Personally, I don’t see anything getting us out of this at least through 2022, maybe longer. And it’s just not me talking. The experts that you talk to, the NVOs, the carrier executives, et cetera, the brokers, the range now that the experts are talking about is anywhere from Chinese New Year, February 1st, 2022 to… The whole range would be from Chinese New Year 2022 to Chinese New Year 2023. Most of the experts are somewhere in between there. They’re thinking that possibly by mid 2022, before the holiday merchandise next year comes in, so June, maybe June, July, of course they were saying the exact same thing this year, every asset provider in the supply chain, the terminal operator, the trucker, the railroad, they are all starred for assets. And you mentioned chassis, chassis are probably the most vital component of that supply chain because you need a chassis to dray a container to a warehouse and then to dray the empty from the warehouse back to the marine terminal.
However, the chassis we had, without going into significant detail, first we had the Trump administration tariffs on imports from China, including chassis, 25%. And by far, the largest manufacturer of chassis in the world is in China. The real dagger in the heart was a trade complaint filed by the domestic chassis producers there, about a half a dozen of those, saying that these chassis from that company in China were being dumped the US. And they got a favorable ruling from the International Trade Commission. It literally doubled the price of each chassis. So until that situation is resolved and we can get chassis acquisition back to the way it used to be, that one vital link, the most vital link in the supply chain, the overland supply chain, is going to grow incrementally in the coming year.
Brian Weinstein: Yeah. I was really hoping when I mentioned getting this resolved that Chinese New Year would at least have the impact of a significantly diminished volume inbound, which would give us some time to clean up what’s what’s already here, get some of those empties back over to Asia to clear out the port somewhat and give us some relief. It’s funny, I had a client out of Australia complaining. He said, “Hey, can you guys send over some empties because we can’t get any product because the US has all the empties.” So this whole poll, I had hoped you were going to say Chinese New Year will really help bring this problem at least significantly reduce where we are now. Then even if it did, for arguments sake, does that take us away from the long term problem of the supply and the demand here?
Bill Mongelluzzo: No. And I’ll answer your question, Brian, but first I want to give you some real life numbers from Lunar New Year experience this year. In February this year, the volume in LA Long Beach dropped to 693,000 TEUs. The very next month, March, the volume was 852,000 TEUs. You’re talking 150,000 increase in one month and then it stayed around 800,000 TEUs through today. So to answer your question, there will be some temporary relief. But given the volumes, it will be so small that it will not have a long lasting impact on this problem of having enough capacity. And to answer your longer term question, what is going to be needed is to one, physically increase the capacity of the ports. And once again, this problem we’re discussing is great in LA Long Beach, but it exists in Oakland, Seattle Tacoma, Savannah, New York, New Jersey, et cetera. In order to build a new marine terminal you, if you can find the space, you’re talking minimum five years.
Now, what is going to happen next month, just one Long Beach container terminal, fully automated, it has pretty much finished its phase three expansion and it will become fully operational by the end of November. That will add to that terminal 1 million TEU capacity per year. But you’re not going to get that type of huge increase at any other terminal in LA Long Beach. So you got to start at the marine terminal level. Since it’s going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible to physically build more terminals, what you have to do is densify the terminals that you’re stuck with. And the only way to densify the terminals is to automate them. Now granted, there are issues with the longshore union. I could do a whole podcast just on that. They’re not as daunting as one might think.
But regardless, the largest terminal in Long Beach, Total Terminals International that’s where Mediterranean shipping falls, they announced this year that they are going to replicate the Long Beach container terminal, what they did, and they are going to fully automate their terminal, which will, when it’s done, double the capacity of that terminal. When you do that, especially at an existing operation like TTI, which is already bursting at the seams, you’re going to have to do one chunk of it at a time. So you’re going to have to take minimum 100 acres out of production for probably two years while you do everything that’s involved in automating that. Then you open that part and then you move to the next 100 acres and then you move to the next. So you’ve got a 300 and something acre terminal to do that and they will do it. LBC did it. It’s going to take minimum five, six years.
Brian Weinstein: Yep. Yeah. Well look, necessity is the mother of invention. There’s got to be something else that’s going to crop up. I don’t know if they become micro ports that pop up around the country, if-
Bill Mongelluzzo: No.
Brian Weinstein: You don’t think so?
Bill Mongelluzzo: No. The reason being that you need infrastructure. So the reason a lot of these small ports are small and always will be small is that they don’t have, for example, the rail infrastructure that you need, which you’re not building any more rail lines these days, or they are located such that there is no need for a container port there. So for example, Philadelphia, okay? Philadelphia handles a lot of meat products and whatever, they’re never going to challenge New York, New Jersey as far as being a container load center. So you can’t put the type of activity that you have… The major gateways are set. There are four on the east coast and three on the west coast. Those will always be the major load centers. These other small ports serve a vital effect, a vital function in handling niche products, Port Hueneme, for example, with fruit and et cetera.
But no, we’re not going to do it that way. The cards have already been dealt. You have to densify the operations. And then secondly, what is happening now is the terminals are draining off containers, inbound containers. As soon as they come off of the vessel, they are draining them to near dock sites. Now SSA Marine in Long Beach has three terminals. It’s been doing that for more than 10 years and they gobbled up the space that’s available in Southern California to do that within an easy drive of the port. But there are other small plots of ground, 50 acres here, 60 acres there that are being developed. Long Beach, there are a couple locations in Seattle Tacoma where they’re doing those types of dray offs. Once again, incremental growth is allowed by that, and you could actually remove the containers from the chassis at those surge yards and free up the chassis as long as you have lift equipment there. So that is happening, but it’s all nibbling around the edges.
Brian Weinstein: Understood, understood. Yeah, so it sounds like we’re going to continue to go through pain and the pain might get worse at ports that elect to automate so you can’t rebuild the plane while it’s flying, so there’s going to be some degree of downtime. And so we’re going to have more pain before this gets better.
Bill Mongelluzzo: Absolutely. And don’t forget now, just looking at vessel capacity, one of the results of COVID was that shipping lines stopped ordering vessels, or significantly reduced. So all of a sudden late last year when the volumes really exploded, they put in orders at shipyards around the world, but mostly in Asia, for large new vessels. So those vessels that are on order right now will begin to deliver in very late 2022 and there will be a huge rush of new capacity globally. But a lot of that will end up in the trans Pacific in 2023 and 2024. So what you’re going to have is let’s say a string of 10,000 TEU vessels that calls in LA Long Beach now will be replaced in 2023 with an 18,000 TEU ship. So one, you’re going to get larger ships coming in, which take longer at birth. Secondly, you’re going to get a lot more of them. So really, we should look at 2022 as a catch up year, as a blessing because things can get really, really bad beginning in 2023.
Brian Weinstein: Yep. Yeah. Well listen, I had really kind of hoped to come out of this feeling somewhat rosier.
Bill Mongelluzzo: I spoiled your day. I admit it. But then again, I did tell the truth. So now if any of your listeners comes up with a better solution than I have, I want to hear about it.
Brian Weinstein: No, for sure. For sure. Again, the truth shall set you free. I don’t know if it really set me free and it certainly didn’t improve my mood when it came to discussing imports, but we do appreciate the candor. And honestly, Bill, we have to face the truth and the reality that we have now. Hopefully the demand stays as strong as it has been because from an economy standpoint, you’ve got people looking to buy product. We’re a consumer economy, so it’s important that continues and that all the rising costs don’t put a damper on that. But for right now, we seem like in that regard, the train is chugging forward. It’s just now what are we going to do to get caught up here on the import side?
Bill Mongelluzzo: And you mentioned cost, Brian. Yeah, the volumes are going to continue to grow. Unless we enter a great recession, we’re not going to see the imports fall off the table by any means. They increase at 10% month over month every year, but the volumes will remain strong. However, I think what is happening now is the asset owners, where they can, are ordering more rail cars, are trying to get more chassis. So once you remove or at least mitigate these asset deficits throughout the supply chain, that will help. And everything has a knock on effect. So if you get more chassis, then that’s going to improve the ability of the truckers to move the containers to the warehouse. And then the terminals will be less congested. So every knock on effect that has been bad could turn into a knock on effect that is good as the asset owners bring more assets into the supply chain to accommodate the cargo volumes they know are going to happen.
And I really think that cost is going to be completely secondary. And I can say that really quickly with a real life example, forever, the spot rate for shipping a 40 foot container from Shanghai to LA varied between 1500 and 2000, depending on the time of year. 1500 to 2000, that was it. Now the listed rates are easily 12,000. Some of these indexes have them as high as 15,000, and yet the retailers and importers are so desperate that they will pay on top of that another couple thousand to ensure that their booking that that container actually gets on the vessel. So cost is almost not a part of the discussion now, it’s all about capacity.
Brian Weinstein: No, too true. I think that leads to a larger economic discussion about how that impacts and eventually that comes out in the form of inflation-
Bill Mongelluzzo: Correct.
Brian Weinstein: … And what’s going to happen there. Now, people are making more money so they can afford to maybe absorb a little bit of a higher cost, but at what point does that stop?
Bill Mongelluzzo: Exactly.
Brian Weinstein: It’s interesting-
Bill Mongelluzzo: How much that can the retailer absorb and how much do they have to pass on and who is really getting hurt in this scenario are the smaller companies, the smaller importers. They can’t afford, they don’t have deep enough pockets to absorb these immediate increases.
Brian Weinstein: No, and nor do they really have the power to push it back to the retailer who then has to make the decision. Are they going to absorb some of it or are they going to pass it on to the consumer? I think in some cases, the end consumer can afford more, again, because I think our jobless rate is very low right now and there’s more people working at a higher wage than before. So there’s a lot that’s there, it’s very complex, and probably a topic for a different podcast, a different time. But yeah, there’s a lot going on and it’ll be interesting to see how it shakes out over the next, it sounds like most likely nine to 18 months.
Bill Mongelluzzo: Yeah. I would say that is a fair estimate.
Brian Weinstein: Excellent. All right. Well Bill, we really appreciate you coming on. It’s Bill Mongelluzzo. He’s Senior Editor of the West Coast Journal of Commerce. Tons of experience, been doing this for a very long time. I could probably talk for hours on this and get more into the complexities about the ports and the chassis and everything else, but I think we’ve covered enough for today. So appreciate your time.
Bill Mongelluzzo: Thank you very much, Brian and Caitlin.
Brian Weinstein: Appreciate it. All right, Caitlin, you want to take us out?
Caitlin Postel: Sure. Thank you, Bill, and thank you everyone for tuning in. Check us out every other Thursday at sippinandshippin.com on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you everybody.
Brian Weinstein: Thank you, everybody. Take care.